wiki:WG1Ballot4Results

Notes about Results

See WG1BallotExplanation.

WG1 - Core

#102 module syntax name

We decided on module earlier, and the current draft reflects that, but some comments from the community suggest we revisit this issue.

Emails from Aaron Hsu and Denis Washington:

[AH] I do not buy the argument that we are making things better by
using `module` instead of `library` in this case. The module term is
much more common throughout, including systems in Chez, PLT, Scheme48
(I believe), among others.

[...]

[DW] (Bigloo and Chicken are two others which use `module` for
existing forms.) I feel that clashing with all of these
implementations substantially increases the burden for these systems'
implementors to adopt to R7RS.

[...]

[DW] What about `define-library`? It might be slightly confusing as it
sounds a bit procedural for a purely syntactic construct, but it does
not seem to clash with any existing implementation (as far as a quick
Google search reveals, at least [as well as direct testing --JC]) and
preserves the "library" term, which is common, well-known, clear and
in line with previous Scheme specs (R6RS and, in a way, R5RS' usage of
the term "library procedure").

If we choose a unique name such as define-library then there is no chance of conflicts, but the name itself may not be aesthetically pleasing.

If we choose an existing name, implementations may have difficulty distinguishing between their native form and the R7RS module syntax, possibly requiring a command-line flag for "R7RS mode" or some such.

TODO: Create a list of existing names used, and ways implementations may detect the difference in the event of a conflict.

  • Options: module, library, define-module, define-library
  • Default: module
  • Voters:
    • Cowan: define-library, define-module
    • Ganz: library
    • Gleckler: define-library, define-module, module, library
    • Medernach: r7rs-module, abstraction, library, component, undecided, define-library, define-module, module, package
    • Shinn: define-library
    • SnellPym: (define-module define-library), library, module
  • Results: define-library, define-module, library, module, r7rs-module, abstraction, component, undecided, package
  • Ratios: 4:0, 4:2, 5:0, 4:1, 4:1, 4:1, 4:1, 5:0
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
I strongly dislike the term library, but R6RS has chosen it. We need to use something different than the library' form, though, to avoid compatibility problems, so I'm choosing define-library'.
Medernach
Other possible names without clashing: abstraction component r7rs-module Name clash occurs with: module package (Snow) define-module (Gauche)
Shinn
Reversed from my earlier decision, we need to avoid conflicts and I haven't seen any better names.

#145 RFC 2119 compliance

R6RS introduces a description of requirement levels following RFC 2119 use of the modal verbs "may", "should", "must", "shall", "should not", "must not", "shall not."

Do we want to incorporate this? If so, we'll also need to revise existing uses of those phrases, and possibly introduce them where needed.

Ganz
Best to avoid "should" and "should not" entirely.
Gleckler
This is more trouble than it's worth. We haven't had this in all the previous revisions of the standard and we've been just fine.
SnellPym
It's a weak yes. I like the idea of defining these terms more tightly.

#185 Add sixth "centered" division operator

We are re-opening the sixth "centered" division operator:

  • (centered/ x y)
  • (centered-quotient x y)
  • (centered-remainder x y)

These correspond to the R6RS operators div0, mod0 and div0-and-mod0 defined as in the Guile manual:

These procedures accept two real numbers x and y, where the divisor y
must be non-zero. centered-quotient returns the integer q and
centered-remainder returns the real number r such that x = q*y + r and
-|y/2| <= r < |y/2|. centered/ returns both q and r, and is more
efficient than computing each separately.

Note that centered-quotient returns x/y rounded to the nearest
integer. When x/y lies exactly half-way between two integers, the tie
is broken according to the sign of y. If y > 0, ties are rounded
toward positive infinity, otherwise they are rounded toward negative
infinity. This is a consequence of the requirement that -|y/2| <= r <
|y/2|.

Vote centered to add the sixth operator, no to stick with the five operators, and remove to drop the full five sets of operators from the small language.

  • Options: centered, no, remove, undecided
  • Default: no
  • Voters:
  • Results: centered, no, undecided, remove
  • Ratios: 5:2, 5:1, 4:3
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
We should have the complete set, and it's not hard to implement.
Hsu
I don't understand these well enough to vote on them yet.
Lucier
(1) I don't see the "centered-*" operators as somehow a "completion" of the other division operators. (2) In the small language I'd recommend only the "truncate-*" and "floor-*" operators for two reasons: they are the only division operators that have an established history of use in computer programming and mathematics, and they form a minimal extension of R5RS. (I'm not saying that the other division operators have never been used in mathematics or programming (see CL), but small Scheme is not supposed to be a kitchen-sink language.)
Shinn
We need to use and understand all of these operators more before deciding. Some of the newly proposed operators have no known use in existing programs to my knowledge.
SnellPym
I used to be for these, but I'm starting to veer towards having a simple set in WG1, and having the full set as a module in WG2 or an SRFI.

#193 values and procedure arguments

A suggestion was made to specify that arguments in a procedure call and "init bindings" (presumably in let and friends) should evaluate to exactly one value. Currently it is "an error" to pass a non-single value to any continuation not created with call-with-values, which means implementations are free to add their own handling of this (e.g. raising an error or taking just the first value as in CL).

Do we want to require implementations to signal an error in these cases? Not currently many implementations of MV would not be able to detect these cases efficiently.

Gleckler
As John points out, there are few places where we require signaling an error. This situation doesn't merit special treatment.
Medernach
The current situation is that some implementations truncate values to the first one, others signal an error, others reifie values, etc. Hence we cannot reach a consensus on this issue and as such one could not rely on it to write portable robust code using multiple values in a single value context. Ok I agree now that signaling an error is a bit too much.
Shinn
No, this is silly.
SnellPym
I think this should be allowed behaviour, in fact, with the defined semantics of taking the first value and discarding others; this allows future extension by returning extra values that old code can then easily discard. Returning zero values should be an error, of course, but for implementation convenience, I would be inclined to allow it to return a value that causes an error if it's actually used for anything (eg, allow zero return values to be implemented by returning a special sentinel value; it needn't fail at the binding site and may fail on the first type dispatch).

#202 Semi-Editorial: Should we remove the specific syntaxes from the BNF in section 7?

These date back to R4RS, when Scheme had a fixed syntax and it made sense to enumerate it here. Are they still doing useful work, now that syntax forms can be changed at will?

Ganz
Don't remove. Standard syntax provides better grounding than "floating" nonterminals.
Gleckler
Even if they can be changed, it's good to have them enumerated for reference.
Medernach
This is intended to describe fundamental Scheme with no macro extensions.
Shinn
Drop these, they don't belong when describing a language without fixed syntax.
SnellPym
Yes, they should go, or else the syntax is not correct.

#212 Let LOAD take an optional environment argument

Change load to take a second argument which is the environment to load into. The default is (interaction-environment).

See also #161.

  • Options: yes, no, undecided
  • Default: no
  • Voters:
  • Results: yes, no, undecided
  • Ratios: 5:1, 5:0
  • Rationales:
Ganz
I agree with Aaron's comments about also allowing for an evaluator (but one of two arguments).
Gleckler
This makes `load' much more useful.
Medernach
It is a change worth to consider.
SnellPym
This just doesn't feel right to me. Hard to put my finger on exactly why, though.

#220 New DIGIT-VALUE procedure

This accepts a character which is a numeric digit and returns its value as a digit, or #f if it's not a digit:

(digit-value #\3) => 3
(digit-value #\x0664) => 4
(digit-value #\x0EA6) => 0

You need the following list of zero-value characters to implement this for all of Unicode (currently); implementations that support only a subset of Unicode need only a subset of the list, of course:

(define zeros '(
  #\x0030 ;DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0660 ;ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT ZERO
  #\x06F0 ;EXTENDED ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT ZERO
  #\x07C0 ;NKO DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0966 ;DEVANAGARI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x09E6 ;BENGALI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0A66 ;GURMUKHI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0AE6 ;GUJARATI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0B66 ;ORIYA DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0BE6 ;TAMIL DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0C66 ;TELUGU DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0CE6 ;KANNADA DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0D66 ;MALAYALAM DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0E50 ;THAI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0ED0 ;LAO DIGIT ZERO
  #\x0F20 ;TIBETAN DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1040 ;MYANMAR DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1090 ;MYANMAR SHAN DIGIT ZERO
  #\x17E0 ;KHMER DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1810 ;MONGOLIAN DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1946 ;LIMBU DIGIT ZERO
  #\x19D0 ;NEW TAI LUE DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1A80 ;TAI THAM HORA DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1A90 ;TAI THAM THAM DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1B50 ;BALINESE DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1BB0 ;SUNDANESE DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1C40 ;LEPCHA DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1C50 ;OL CHIKI DIGIT ZERO
  #\xA620 ;VAI DIGIT ZERO
  #\xA8D0 ;SAURASHTRA DIGIT ZERO
  #\xA900 ;KAYAH LI DIGIT ZERO
  #\xA9D0 ;JAVANESE DIGIT ZERO
  #\xAA50 ;CHAM DIGIT ZERO
  #\xABF0 ;MEETEI MAYEK DIGIT ZERO
  #\xFF10 ;FULLWIDTH DIGIT ZERO
  #\x104A0 ;OSMANYA DIGIT ZERO
  #\x11066 ;BRAHMI DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1D7CE ;MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1D7D8 ;MATHEMATICAL DOUBLE-STRUCK DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1D7E2 ;MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1D7EC ;MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD DIGIT ZERO
  #\x1D7F6 ;MATHEMATICAL MONOSPACE DIGIT ZERO
))

(define (digit-value ch) (digit-value* ch zeros))

(define (digit-value* ch zeros)
  (if
    (null? zeros)
    #f
    (let*
      ((val (char->integer ch))
       (val0 (char->integer (car zeros)))
       (val9 (+ val0 9)))
        (if
          (and (<= val0 val) (<= val val9))
          (- val val0)
          (digit-value* ch (cdr zeros))))))

CL provides this as digit-char-p, which is its substitute for char-numeric?.

Gleckler
As John points out, this is essential now for implementations that support Unicode now that we support non-ASCII digits.
Shinn
This belongs in the (scheme char) module.
SnellPym
This is a useful feature, and essential for practical working in international environments, I suspect.

#221 Editorial: Consolidate and clarify formal-parameter conventions

Page 4 shows a naming convention for procedure parameters:

  • obj - any object
  • list - list
  • z - complex

and so on.

There is no notation convention for characters and strings. It feels a bit funny that the document uses this notation and then x, x_1, x_2 are used for reals, but then uses "char_1" and "char_2" for characters.

  • Proposals:
    • abbrev: abbreviate char => ch and string => str
    • list: just add char and string to the list of conventions
  • Options: abbrev, list, none, undecided
  • Default: none
  • Voters:
  • Results: list, abbrev, no, undecided
  • Ratios: 3:3, 6:1, 6:0
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
This will make the document clearer. The abbreviations don't save enough space to be worth doing.
Shinn
I think this is self-explanatory.
SnellPym
It makes sense to be consistent.

#222 Rename character ports to textual ports

The term "textual port" is R6RS compatible.

  • Options: textual, character, undecided
  • Default: character
  • Voters:
  • Results: textual, character, undecided
  • Ratios: 4:2, 4:1
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
I prefer character, but there's no reason to be different than R6RS here.
Shinn
Bikeshed, go with R6RS.
SnellPym
What colour to paint the bikeshed, eh?

#223 Converting current-{input,output}-ports to binary

The standard input and output ports which current-input-port and current-output-port are initially bound to are not opened explicitly. They default to character ports. Should they be replaceable with equivalent binary ports using the following procedures?

  • (standard-input-is-binary!)
  • (standard-output-is-binary!)

It is an error to call either of these if the corresponding current-{input,output}-port is not the original value, or if any I/O has been performed on them, or if they cannot reasonably be treated as binary.

Gleckler
This feels super kludgy. I'd rather leave it to implementations than specify something like this.
Medernach
It would be nice to do so but we need a better interface than this either to generally change port type or why not something like converting it whan read-u8 as soon as is used ?
Shinn
This needs more thought.
SnellPym
Ugly hack. Standard input and output are defined as character streams for the good of repls and the like. Having them as binary streams should be done with some kind of whole-program pragma/option, which we currently have no mechanism in place for, and IMHO this should leave current-input-port and current-output-port still pointing to character ports (current-output-port can be stderr under POSIX, and current-input-port either exist but start off closed or something like that. Windows systems may be perfectly capable of having binary stdin and stdout while presenting a textual console in a window, for example.

#224 Additional blob I/O

See BlobIoShinn, which provides the ability to read and write blobs, and simple conversions between blobs (interpreted as UTF-8) and strings.

Gleckler
Yes, but the names should use "bytevector" instead of "blob."
Medernach
Absolutely needed

#226 Remove property-list file specs from WG1

Getting rid of file-specs was the motivation for the new binary I/O API we agreed on, but it was not made explicit in the proposal. Consequently, although all references to file-spec have been removed from the current draft, we should vote on this for completeness.

#229 EQV? and NaN

For good reasons, +nan.0 is not = to any other number, including itself. However, eqv? is about "sameness" rather than "equality".

The same proposal is that we add two clauses to the definition of eqv?, one saying that if both arguments are +nan.0, eqv? must return #t, and if one argument is +nan.0 and the other is not, eqv? must return #f. This is what R6RS specifies.

The different proposal is that we add a single clause requiring (eqv? +nan.0 x) to return #f for any x. This is the behavior that results for any R5RS implementation that adds support for +nan.0 as an IEEE float without any special handling for it in eqv?.

Note the second clause in the same proposal is universally supported by all implementations with +nan.0 except for SISC, which appears to have a bug (see below), so the only thing to decide is the first clause.

The following 7 implementations return #t: chez, gambit, guile, ikarus, kawa, racket, stklos.

The following 7 implementations return #f: bigloo, chibi, chicken, gauche, larceny, mit-scheme, scheme48.

SigScheme? and Scheme 9 don't have +nan.0. SISC currently has a bug where (= nan.0 x) is true for any x.

Since implementations currently disagree on these semantics, it may make the most sense to leave this unspecified.

  • Options: same, different, unspecified, undecided
  • Default: unspecified
  • Voters:
  • Results: same, unspecified, same*, undecided, different
  • Ratios: 4:2, 4:1, 4:0, 4:0
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
Let's match R6RS since this is easy to implement. Otherwise, then since implementation differ so much on the semantics, it would better to leave this unspecified than to specify something different than R6RS.
Lucier
*There are possibly many NaNs? generated by IEEE-conforming arithmetics; for example Apple used to (and may still) use different NaNs? in its arithmetic libraries to indicate which routine generated the initial NaN (which is passed along unchanged in later operations). So +nan.0 may be the textual representation of floating point numbers with different bit patterns. So I would recommend that (let ((x (/ 0. 0.))) (eqv? x x)) => #t but allow (if (and (real? x) (nan? x) (real? y) (nan? y)) (eqv? x y) #t) to return #f. In other words, two NaNs? with the same bit patterns are eqv?, and we still have (eq? x y) implies (eqv? x y). This is such a small thing that I think implementors can do it without much trouble and it's time to get it right.
Shinn
It is de facto unspecified.

#230 Reserve module names for current and future standards

Do we want to add a clause stating that all module names under the (scheme ...) name are reserved for current and future standards? Do we want to reserve the (srfi ...) names?

Note the name scheme may be changed pending the result of #237.

  • Options: scheme, srfi, both, neither, undecided
  • Default: no
  • Voters:
  • Results: both, scheme, undecided, srfi, no, yes
  • Ratios: 5:0, 5:0, 5:0, 5:0, 5:1
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
Yes, let's keep the way clear for future implementations and SRFIs. But if we don't reserve for future implementations, we shouldn't reserve for SRFIs.

#232 define-values

Several implementations provide a define-values macro. This allows cleanly writing multiple definitions with a shared state for example.

Should we have it on WG1 or not?

Ganz
Avoids polluting the global environment.
Gleckler
I don't have a strong preference for including it, but since it is useful, its definition is tiny, and it is supported by several implementations, there's no reason not to.
Shinn
Enough with the syntactic sugar! Let people write their own, or refer to the large language for common macros.

#234 Add EAGER from SRFI 45

eager, like delay, returns a promise object that can be forced by force, but it evaluates its argument up front (it is a procedure, not syntax) and stashes it in the promise in such a way that force can access it.

Semantically, writing (eager expression) is equivalent to writing (let ((value expression)) (delay value)).

Some debate was given as to how useful eager is - generally, if something is known in advance to be eager you don't want to make it a promise to begin with. Use cases should be provided if we want to include this.

Ganz
The point is not whether you know in advance that something is to be eager or not. It is that one should be able to feed into a routine over promises that doesn't know or care.
Gleckler
This is a good symmetry.
Medernach
John's example convinced me that this has its place inside the (scheme lazy) module.
Shinn
I'm not convinced the uses for this are common enough to add it as a procedure instead of just writing (let ((value expression)) (delay value)).
SnellPym
I have no interesting use cases.

#235 Should bytevector constants be self-quoting?

They are in R6RS, apparently because they are considered more closely related to strings rather than vectors.

Note currently vectors are not self-quoting.

Ganz
They seem closer to vectors than strings, and in any case that is what the name implies.
Gleckler
Let's not be different from R6RS when it's easy not to be and there aren't good reasons to be.
Shinn
There's no reason they shouldn't be.
SnellPym
I think vectors ought to be self-quoting, anyway. What other semantics do they have, other than their own value? There is at most an argument that records ought not to be self quoting, purely so they are useless as unquoted literals, so that they can be used as special markers for code transformers that then cannot be confused for anything in the code. Even then, though, such transformers can just create a private disjoint type and be confident they have full control of the appearance of instances of it.

#237 Change "scheme" in module names to "rsn" or "rs11" or something else

The term "scheme" is already in use in module names on some Scheme implementations. We need to pick something that nobody is using.

The term "rnrs" was used by R6RS, but this was integrated with the library versioning mechanism. It therefore may not be suitable, and either way would cause conflicts with existing R6RS modules.

Feel free to write in a name.

  • Options: scheme, r7rs, scheme2011, undecided
  • Default: scheme
  • Voters:
  • Results: scheme, r7rs, undecided, scheme2011
  • Ratios: 3:2, 4:0, 4:1
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
"Scheme" is just the right term. I certainly don't want scheme2011, which needlessly emphasizes the year.
Medernach
Scheme or r7rs are the most natural and expected terms
Shinn
"r7rs" avoids the issue that we don't have explicit versioning capabilities. When and if we have the same modules unchanged across two or more standards, we can use the "scheme" name.

#238 Reserve #! for read directives

From Denis Washington:

Reading chapter 2 of the third draft, I was thinking: now that we have
`#!fold-case` and `#!no-fold-case` and other directives might follow
in WG2, wouldn't it be appropriate for section 2.3 (Other notations)
to define `#!` as generally introducing a "read directive"? That would
encourage implementations to use the same syntax for their own
directives, which helps portability (an implementation could just
ignore unknown directives which might just be used by another for
optimization purposes).

Note that since the only use we have alters the reader, the ! is consistent with the existing convention for !.

Gleckler
As John points out, some implementations already use the "#!" prefix for other purposes.
Shinn
This conflicts with other uses of "#!".

#240 Rename current-second to current-tai

The procedure, as currently spec'd, may return a fraction of a second, and there should be a mention of TAI in it. Current-tai-time is redundant, since the T in TAI stands for Time (or Temps).

  • Options: current-second, current-tai-time, current-tai, undecided
  • Default: current-second
  • Voters:
  • Results: current-second, current-tai
  • Ratios: 4:3
  • Rationales:
Ganz
current-tai identifies the earliest representable time in a way that current-second does not.
Gleckler
There's no reason that current-second' is incompatible with returning fractional second values. And we certainly don't want the redundant current-tai-time'.
Medernach
current-second is a good naming choice, describing that this is indeed TAI in the function description is enough.
SnellPym
Yeah, that sounds sensible. I know somebody who goes by the name of "Tai" anyway, and he might be amused by this.

#243 Add optional support for -0.0

Implementations should be permitted to distinguish 0.0 from -0.0 in accordance with IEEE 754. 0.0 and -0.0 should be the same to = and friends, but should be distinguishable by eqv?.

Mathematically, negative inexact zero represents a number greater than the largest representable negative inexact number and less than or equal to 0. This is different from positive inexact zero, which represents a number greater than or equal to 0 and less than the smallest representable positive inexact number.

Vote yes to adapt the description of -0.0 from R6RS and include examples where appropriate.

Gleckler
Let's be compatible with R6RS.
Lucier
I can't find what is meant in this issue by "the description of -0.0 from R6RS" after searching for all instances of "-0.0" in r6rs.pdf and r6rs-lib.pdf. There are many helpful examples and statements in R6RS about -0.0, but I don't know what is meant here. The description given in the second paragraph above is descriptive, but it is certainly not proscriptive; in other words, if epsilon is the smallest positive inexact number then (and (<= 0 +0.) (< +0. epsilon)) => #t but also (and (<= 0 -0.) (< -0. epsilon)) => #t So I don't know what this ticket means.
Medernach
By conformance to IEEE 754

#244 Extended "Overview of Scheme" chapter

Denis Washington said (<http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2011-August/001255.html>):

I would love to see a ticket added about possibly including (some of)
the detailed "Overview of Scheme" chapter from R6RS into the report;
it helps very much to understand the rest of the report and is
invaluable for e.g. students. Would someone from the working group do
this (provided that anyone actually agrees with me)? It would be sad
if this consideration were forgotten.

The "Overview of Scheme" in R6RS contains a similar introduction as in the section of the same name in R5RS, followed by a rough tutorial describing the basic syntax and data types.

Ganz
I'd leave out examples unless we can be sure of reasonably complete coverage, which may take a lot of space.
Gleckler
We should be certainly include the first section of the Overview of Scheme from R6RS, and should include more if possible. I can help adapt the old text.
Shinn
This is not a normative part of the report, nor do I feel does it provide a particularly good tutorial, which should be tailored to different types of students. It just presents a watered-down version of the same descriptions provided later in the same, relatively short document.
SnellPym
This is a fine idea, and will help people who are not experienced Schemers to read the spec. This can only help us to publicise R7RS in the wider world.

#245 Editorial: Case-folding should refer to UAX

In the string case conversion, it mentions the context sensitivity of Greek sigma: A small final sigma needs to be used when it is at the end of the word. However, there's no definition of "word", which can lead inconsistent behavior among implementations. We can refer to UAX #29, as R6RS does.

Vote uax-29 for the reference, or unspecified to leave this up to the implementation.

  • Options: uax-29, unspecified, undecided
  • Default: unspecified
  • Voters:
  • Results: uax-29, unspecified, undecided
  • Ratios: 6:1, 5:1
  • Rationales:
Shinn
We can say "_should_ follow UAX-29" here.

#248 fill-string and fill-vector: optional start/end arguments?

Should we provide the obvious way to fill part of a string or vector?

Gleckler
These are easy to implement, useful, and may be faster if the implementation provides them.
Shinn
Fill-string is an abomination, fill-vector belongs in a larger vector library.
SnellPym
Much as I hate the imperativity of these, they should be general rather than specific.

#254 Behavior of open-output-file on existing files

Currently this is unspecified, and different implementations behave differently. WG2 will likely provide explicit control for this, but we may want to specify the default behavior in WG1.

Vote overwrite to truncate and overwrite the existing file, or error to require an error be signalled.

  • Options: overwrite, error, unspecified, undecided
  • Default: unspecified
  • Voters:
  • Results: unspecified, overwrite, undecided
  • Ratios: 3:2, 3:1
  • Rationales:
Ganz
This seems too important to be left unspecified. The mechanism for explicit control should be in wg1.
Gleckler
Don't break existing programs.
Medernach
Relegate control on opening files to WG2.
Shinn
This seems to be the most common behavior among implementations.
SnellPym
It's the sensible and useful thing to do, IMHO.

#262 module factoring (scheme io)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

This and the following items ask you to decide whether a current set of procedures under discussion belongs in the core or a separate module. The default is core reflecting the fact that R5RS had no separate modules at all.

Should the basic I/O procedures (not involving file I/O or reading or writing) be in the core or a separate module?

Gleckler
These forms have been part of the language for a long time and are a fundamental idea.
Medernach
Rename (scheme io) to (scheme ports) as it deals with ports management, which are not exclusively used for I/O (as strings ports for example). Don't require it into the base because some implementation don't need this.
Shinn
The I/O system is controversial, hence the complete (though unpopular) rewrite in R6RS. We should leave room for people to experiment with alternatives without them being second-class.

#263 module factoring (scheme repl)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary (see #262).

Should interaction-environment be in the core, the REPL module, or the eval module?

Ganz
It's not really fundamentally tied to repl, anyway. Perhaps rename it 'implementation-environment'.
Gleckler
Embedded implementations, for example, may want a way to avoid including that code when they aren't using it.
Shinn
interaction-environment is an abstract utility, not necessarily restricted to a traditional REPL.

#264 module factoring (scheme case-lambda)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should case-lambda be in the core or a separate module?

  • Options: core, separate
  • Default: core
  • Voters:
  • Results: separate, core, remove
  • Ratios: 4:3, 3:1
  • Rationales:
Ganz
I see no reason to identify whether or not programs use this feature.
Gleckler
`Case-lambda' is new, and some implementations may want to define their own extensions and make that clear through loading modules.
Medernach
This one has to be in a module: it poorly handles neither optional arguments nor pattern matching. It is the kind of feature we later regret having into the core.
Shinn
case-lambda is one of the worst things that has ever happened to Scheme. It requires a quadratic explosion in duplicate code to handle the optional parameters case, yet it strictly less powerful than alternatives such as match-lambda for more complex cases. It is only useful as a niche form for procedures whose behavior actually changes depending on the number of arguments - an uncommon and debatable type of API, which should not be encouraged.

#265 module factoring (scheme multiple-values)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should values and call-with-values be in the core or a separate module?

Ganz
If these are in their own module, so should call-with-current-continuation be, and for that matter mutating forms. I'm not necessarily opposed to that -- it depends on what one thinks the purpose of the factoring is. But we may not want to go down that road.
Gleckler
Multiple values have been part of the language for a long time and are a fundamental idea.
Shinn
Multiple values are another wart in the language, which unecessarily complicate both the implementation and all user code which deals with HOFs.

#266 module factoring (scheme char normalization)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should the Unicode normalization procedures be in the core, the char module, or their own separate module?

#267 module factoring all I/O

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should we provide an aggregate module for the three (or four) proposed I/O modules, where (scheme io) provides all of:

  • (scheme io base) (if not in the core)
  • (scheme file)
  • (scheme read)
  • (scheme write)
Ganz
As long as we are providing the hierarchical structure, might as well use it.
Gleckler
It's better to be explicit.
Shinn
I've changed my mind here. We can leave aggregate modules up to WG2.

#268 module factoring (scheme parameter)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should make-parameter and parameterize be in the core or their own separate module?

Note current-in/output/error-port are parameters, though they do not require the parameter API to be useful as is.

Ganz
Comments regarding #265 apply.
Gleckler
They're so simple and few in number (two) that there's no reason to separate them.
Medernach
These functions allow creation and management of dynamic bindings, let put these in a module so people wanting them know what they are doing. (Moreover as stated above, current-in/output/error-port have their own API)
Shinn
This is intertwined with the core language.

#269 module factoring (scheme record)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should define-record-type be in the core or in its own separate module?

Gleckler
Users may want to use more elaborate versions of `define-record-type' and make that clear through loading modules.
Medernach
As this is a sensible issue, I would prefer not to write SRFI-9 in stone into the core but let open the (scheme record *) namespace for all kind of record implementations (in WG2 maybe).
Shinn
No one thinks SRFI-9 is the one true record system, just that it's the only one we can agree on. We should leave room for other record systems, and not give this one special status.

#270 module factoring (scheme char)

This is one of several issues raised by ModuleFactoringSummary.

Should the Unicode character case and property utilities be in the core or their own separate module?

Gleckler
This is new.
Medernach
Separate and optional as not all Scheme implementations will support Unicode.
Shinn
These require pretty large tables to load into a small implementation.

#231 WG1/WG2 Scheme naming proposal

Denis Washington made the following proposal for the names of the variants of Scheme defined by WG1 and WG2:

  • WG1: "Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme, Revised 2011" (abbr.: RS11)
  • WG2: "Report on Standard Extensions to the Algorithmic Language Scheme, Revised 2011" (abbr.: RSES11; alternatively, "[...] Commobn Extensions [...]", abbr. RCES11; should probably be "Published 2011" as there is no original document to revise.)

The current draft is written in the same style and layout as all the drafts through R5RS, and by default has kept the same naming convention. Do we want to change the name?

Note the name for WG2 is beyond the scope of this ballot.

Gleckler
Changing the naming convention after all these years is bikeshedding and dropping a fun and respected tradition. Furthermore, we'll have to explain the break over and over again.
Medernach
Putting the date is a bad idea IMHO, it wrongly makes the language look deprecated some years after. Just name it something like "Report on the Core Scheme Language" with a subtitle like "2011 edition, 7th revision" (not directly a part of the title).
Shinn
I think changing the name at this point would give the misleading impression that the new report somehow deviates from tradition even more so than R6RS.

#189 List changes from R6RS

An incomplete list of the differences between this language and the R6RS is available. Do we want to include this directly into the document? Alternately it can go into a separate document, or be included in the WG2 document.

Ganz
Separate document.
Gleckler
Let's include this directly in the document. It's important to explain this clearly.
Medernach
As the language is now splitted in "little WG1" and "big WG2" languages, does it really make sense to compare WG1 to R6RS rather than WG2 ? Comparing WG1 to R5RS is a better idea IMHO.
Shinn
This would be too long, and more properly belongs in WG2.
SnellPym
It would make an interesting appendix, and allow us to rationalise what might otherwise seem arbitrary decisions to people who haven't followed the exciting history of the mailing list.

#227 quasiquote and cycles

Some doubts were raised as to whether reader label cycles were allowed in quasiquote. Since cycles in code are "an error", and quasiquote is just a macro expanding into code, then this case is also an error (and thus implementation dependent).

Do we want to explicitly state that the result is an error for quasiquote? Or make a special exception and try to require handling of some cases for quasiquote? Or make no special note of this since it's already covered?

Vote note to add a note.

Ganz
I'm not so sure this is an error. Quoted objects expand to code, but quasiquote operates on a representation of data (with embedded code). If we're not prepared to define reasonable semantics, we should say nothing.
Gleckler
If it's confusing, it's better to be explicit.
Shinn
If we include error examples for this case, we should include one for quasiquote.

WG1 - Reader Syntax

#214 string/symbol escape sequence confusing

From Felix Winkelmann:

Using "\xX...;" as escape sequence is suboptimal, as it confuses
syntax highlighters. I also have no knowledge of any precedent
of this syntax. Also: how is this sequence handled inside "|...|"?

Prior to R6RS no implementations to my knowledge used this syntax, and "\xXX" with a fixed two characters and no trailing semi-colon, as well as "\x{X...}" were used. The semi-colon specifically conflicts with the existing uses of "\xXX", although this can't represent all characters. Braces would at least allow for backwards compatibility with existing code.

Note the escapes for symbols will be the same unless someone proposed otherwise.

  • Proposals:
    • semi-colon: the current draft and R6RS option
    • brace: "\x{X...}" where the braces are required
    • brace-or-semi-colon: either of the two above
    • fixed-two: "\xXX" with two fixed hex-digits (can't support all chars)
    • optional-semi-colon: use semi-colon as a terminator if present, otherwise only read the first two hex-digits
  • Options: semi-colon, brace, brace-or-semi-colon, fixed-two, optional-semi-colon, undecided
  • Default: semi-colon
  • Voters:
  • Results: semi-colon, brace, brace-or-semi-colon, undecided
  • Ratios: 3:2, 4:1, 4:0
  • Rationales:
Ganz
This is too minor an issue to bring in braces.
Gleckler
Syntax highlighters can be updated.
Shinn
This is unambiguous and doesn't conflict with existing syntax.

#218 infinity/nan syntax

The current BNF for symbol syntax is rather cumbersome, having to account for the fact that +inf.0, -inf.0 and +nan.0 are numbers even though they do not begin with a numeric prefix.

A simple solution would be to use an alternative such as 0/1, 0/-1 and 0/0, respectively. These are shorter, more self explanatory, and do not conflict with the definition of symbol syntax.

Alternately we can just require a numeric prefix on the existing names.

  • Proposals:
    • r6rs: +inf.0, -inf.0, +nan.0
    • short: 0/1, 0/-1, 0/0
    • dotted: 0/1.0, 0/-1.0, 0/0.0
    • prefix: 0+inf, 0-inf, 0+nan
    • prefix-dotted: 0+inf.0, 0-inf.0, 0+nan.0
  • Options: r6rs, short, dotted, prefix, prefix-dotted, undecided
  • Default: r6rs
  • Voters:
  • Results: r6rs, dotted, prefix-dotted, prefix, short, ...
  • Ratios: 5:2, 6:1, 6:1, 6:1, 6:0
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
Ugh. Let's not be gratuitously incompatible with R6RS just because the BNF is cumbersome.
Lucier
I presume that the short and dotted notation was meant to be I strongly feel that any notation that incorporates unadorned "0" (not "+0." or "-0.") is incredibly misleading, as (/ 1 0) => Error (/ 1.0 0) => Error etc. The R6RS notation is sub-optimal in my opinion, as it does not indicate the bit patterns in a NaN either on input or output, but it seems better than the alternatives.
Shinn
This fits well with our definition of symbol syntax, and keeps the BNF simple and free of exceptions.
SnellPym
I reckon the dot is important (they're inexact), and forcing a numeric prefix will simplify the rules for symbols in a pleasing manner.

#219 bring back readable boolean literals

Scheme used to use #!true and #!false before abbreviating to the unfortunate #t and #f syntax, which look far too much alike.

We could add these back in as aliases, optionally without the "!" now that tokens are required to be delimited so there would be no ambiguity.

Note - this proposal is to add alternate names. #t and #f will be kept however we vote.

  • Proposals:
    • long: #true and #false
    • bang-long: #!true and #!false
  • Options: long, bang-long, none, undecided
  • Default: none
  • Voters:
  • Results: long, no, bang-long, undecided
  • Ratios: 4:3, 4:1, 4:1
  • Rationales:
Gleckler
Let's not do this. They've been removed. I don't have trouble distinguishing #t from #f. Anyone who does can define true' and false'.
Medernach
Alex convinced me that this is more readable (along with keepeing shortened forms for compatibility).
Shinn
Most languages use true and false spelled out, and #t and #f are maddenlingly difficult to distinguish.
SnellPym
#!... is unnecessarily verbose and clashes with using #! for reader directives. But I like the longer names.

#22 mantissa widths and placeholders

Previously we voted to keep the R5RS # placeholders for "unknown" digits, and leave out the new R6RS mantissa widths.

Feedback suggests that this feature is never used in R5RS programs. It was a leftover from R3RS procedures for formatting numbers when more digits of precision were asked for than were available, and also commonly used in papers on the subject of formatting numbers. These formatters are no longer in the language, and human-written code rarely if ever takes advantage of the feature, so we may want to reconsider removing it from the language.

Vote no to remove the # placeholders.

Gleckler
They don't need to be in the standard if no one uses them.
SnellPym
Let's be jewel-like.

#68 "Undefined value" vs. "undefined values"

Previously we voted to keep the R5RS semantics of returning a single, unspecified value for the results of side-effecting expressions.

Some implementors have raised concerns about this. The R6RS semantics allow implementations to return an unspecified number of unspecified values, which allows for the R5RS semantics, as well as for returning zero values.

The argument is that a non-trivial amount of existing R5RS code explicitly depends on these expressions returning a single value.

The counter-argument is that using an unspecified value at all is bad style, and there is likely a large overlap between the programmers who do so and the implementations which will continue to return a single value. The hope is that code using "good style" would be portable, whereas "bad style" would continue to work on existing implementations but not be portable to others.

We should reconsider this item.

Ganz
I like the idea of returning zero values.
Gleckler
Let's not break existing programs if there isn't widespread agreement.
Medernach
R6RS phrasing allows flexibility. With it implementations are free to return any useful value or to return no values instead of an unfortunate "undefined" value.
Shinn
This is the de facto standard. Although R6RS loosened the requirements, existing implementations continue to return a single value.
SnellPym
I've made my views on this clear before!
Last modified 5 years ago Last modified on 04/03/12 23:14:18